MattSepeta
Apr 14, 04:17 PM
I never thought I'd see the day, but I agree with you. Everyone has to see a tax increase in order to solve the budget problems.
The non-tax accountant part of me (the tax accountant part of me wants the tax code as complicated as humanly possible) would love it if the corporate tax code was simplified and the tax rates reduced so that corporations actually paid taxes in line with other nations - we'd still probably see more revenue even with the decreased rates because the base would be broadened and corporations would actually pay. We should probably broaden the tax base for individuals by eliminating deductions and then eliminate the Bush tax cuts for everyone (which will increase tax rates across the board, more so at the upper two brackets). I'm not opposed to adding a VAT with a low rate either.
I'd like to see plenty of spending cuts too - stop the three wasteful and pointless wars we are fighting would be a great start, then cut defense spending. Like it or not, I think we need to acknowledge that social security needs changes - a decrease in benefits and removing the limit on payroll taxes for social security would be a good start.
But then again, I'm a moderate (though I am generally fiscally libertarian) and I understand the urgency with which we need to eliminate our deficit and decrease our national debt. I don't have much hope for any of this happening, since neither side can seem to acknowledge that we need a combo of what they both propose.
Spot on. If we are going to raise taxes we should raise them on EVERYBODY. I would gladly take a hit if everyone else was going to.
We should also cut spending across the board. Cut spending on EVERYTHING.
No singling anybody/thing out, no exempting anybody/anything.
The non-tax accountant part of me (the tax accountant part of me wants the tax code as complicated as humanly possible) would love it if the corporate tax code was simplified and the tax rates reduced so that corporations actually paid taxes in line with other nations - we'd still probably see more revenue even with the decreased rates because the base would be broadened and corporations would actually pay. We should probably broaden the tax base for individuals by eliminating deductions and then eliminate the Bush tax cuts for everyone (which will increase tax rates across the board, more so at the upper two brackets). I'm not opposed to adding a VAT with a low rate either.
I'd like to see plenty of spending cuts too - stop the three wasteful and pointless wars we are fighting would be a great start, then cut defense spending. Like it or not, I think we need to acknowledge that social security needs changes - a decrease in benefits and removing the limit on payroll taxes for social security would be a good start.
But then again, I'm a moderate (though I am generally fiscally libertarian) and I understand the urgency with which we need to eliminate our deficit and decrease our national debt. I don't have much hope for any of this happening, since neither side can seem to acknowledge that we need a combo of what they both propose.
Spot on. If we are going to raise taxes we should raise them on EVERYBODY. I would gladly take a hit if everyone else was going to.
We should also cut spending across the board. Cut spending on EVERYTHING.
No singling anybody/thing out, no exempting anybody/anything.
grahamperrin
Dec 24, 01:11 AM
Kaspersky …is a lot heavier on system resources.
With Sophos, users may find heaviness in different ways.
The default number of WorkerThreads seems to make the system unusable for some users of the current version of Sophos. That's heaviness of one sort.
A higher number of WorkerThreads, for which there's no GUI, will use resources in a different way. That's heaviness of a different sort.
A system that's consistently usable is a must, so for as long as there's uncertainty around http://openforum.sophos.com/t5/Sophos-Anti-Virus-for-Mac-Home/Unable-to-complete-login-after-reboot/m-p/1027#M599 I should recommend approaching SAV with caution, and with readiness to work around things from the command line.
With Sophos, users may find heaviness in different ways.
The default number of WorkerThreads seems to make the system unusable for some users of the current version of Sophos. That's heaviness of one sort.
A higher number of WorkerThreads, for which there's no GUI, will use resources in a different way. That's heaviness of a different sort.
A system that's consistently usable is a must, so for as long as there's uncertainty around http://openforum.sophos.com/t5/Sophos-Anti-Virus-for-Mac-Home/Unable-to-complete-login-after-reboot/m-p/1027#M599 I should recommend approaching SAV with caution, and with readiness to work around things from the command line.
CalBoy
Mar 26, 11:08 PM
I think this rumor can be readily discredited.
Apple has been trying for a few years now to streamline product updates so that they happen like clockwork once per year.
The past few macbook pro updates have been in the spring/late winter, macbooks are seemingly being updated prior to the Back to School deal, iPods are updated in September towards the end of the student sale, iPhones have launched in June every year, iPad and iPad 2 both began selling in the spring, and while iMacs haven't had a clear pattern emerge yet, it appears to be coalescing around 1 year and I think it's safe to say that as time goes on, a yearly cycle will become dominant.
Despite the news of Lion being almost ready (or ready) for Golden Master, I think it's more probable that Lion is put on hold until iOS 5 is ready to launch as happened with Leopard and to a much lesser extent, Snow Leopard. Apple makes far more money and gets far more worldwide press from the iOS family than it does the OS X lineup. At this point, not launching an iPhone and a new OS for it in June would go against 4 years of pattern and practice, and would cause too much negative publicity, especially in the face of a constantly evolving market where a few months of lag time can cost a company vital market share and mindshare.
Apple has been trying for a few years now to streamline product updates so that they happen like clockwork once per year.
The past few macbook pro updates have been in the spring/late winter, macbooks are seemingly being updated prior to the Back to School deal, iPods are updated in September towards the end of the student sale, iPhones have launched in June every year, iPad and iPad 2 both began selling in the spring, and while iMacs haven't had a clear pattern emerge yet, it appears to be coalescing around 1 year and I think it's safe to say that as time goes on, a yearly cycle will become dominant.
Despite the news of Lion being almost ready (or ready) for Golden Master, I think it's more probable that Lion is put on hold until iOS 5 is ready to launch as happened with Leopard and to a much lesser extent, Snow Leopard. Apple makes far more money and gets far more worldwide press from the iOS family than it does the OS X lineup. At this point, not launching an iPhone and a new OS for it in June would go against 4 years of pattern and practice, and would cause too much negative publicity, especially in the face of a constantly evolving market where a few months of lag time can cost a company vital market share and mindshare.
EagerDragon
Jul 21, 07:55 PM
Don't get me wrong, I like to have the machines grow in power ever few months better than ever 12 to 18 months like we used to see before the switch.
However I wonder about the financials, how it will affect the inventories every time there is a new processor. Intel is competing for its life with AMD and we all get affected. But so do the manufactorers that have to time their productions so they don't end up with a lot of inventory with the old chip, If they wait too long to release improved machines then the competion gets all the good publicity and gets to be first. If too early, then have to discount a lot of inventory to move it.
Good news can also be bad news, but...... Bring it on, I like it, but watch the bottom line please.:o
However I wonder about the financials, how it will affect the inventories every time there is a new processor. Intel is competing for its life with AMD and we all get affected. But so do the manufactorers that have to time their productions so they don't end up with a lot of inventory with the old chip, If they wait too long to release improved machines then the competion gets all the good publicity and gets to be first. If too early, then have to discount a lot of inventory to move it.
Good news can also be bad news, but...... Bring it on, I like it, but watch the bottom line please.:o
JaimeChinook
Nov 9, 12:56 PM
After being reassured by a number of posts here, I downloaded the Sophos software and immediately did a scan of my HD. I was expecting it to find something "serious" that I would have to let Sophos deal with. It did not. Nothing was found; although the scan took about 45 minutes. At one point (near the end), the scan seemed to stop (hang up?) but it restarted OK. Perhaps it was just dealing with a particularly large file.
I, too, am not so concerned about viral problems with my MBP but I do receive and resend files from numerous PCs so I suppose have Sophos software "on the job" might make me more responsible.
I am curious; I seldom find anything is free. How does Sophos recover his investment in this project?
I, too, am not so concerned about viral problems with my MBP but I do receive and resend files from numerous PCs so I suppose have Sophos software "on the job" might make me more responsible.
I am curious; I seldom find anything is free. How does Sophos recover his investment in this project?
Huntn
May 3, 10:26 AM
I can tell you that a lot of stuff manufactured in the US is still using the old units. We Canadians, supposedly metric, get to live with it. We don't make our own paint cans, so we buy a gallon of paint. But... we can't label it as a gallon so it's sold as a 3.79 litre can. Same thing for beer. We buy it in 331ml, or 347ml units (or something like that).
Best of all.... When Environment Canada calls for a -5� day I crank the thermostat up to 69 and think about roasting a 3kg chicken with 1/2lb of potatoes, in an oven set at 375. When I bought the chicken the supermarket had a sale on in the deli. Buy 1/2 lb of sliced roast beef, and get 100gs of potato salad free.
I'll drive 10 km to visit my friend who lives in a 1200sq/ft house. It's nice, they have a view since they are 300m(etres) up the bluff. They can see Five Mile Creek, which is at least 25km away. Except if it's storming. We can storms here with winds of at least 100kph and that will drop an inch or two of rain. On the mainland, the Fraser river, which is over 2200 km long, can rise 10, 12, even 15 feet in the spring melt. The flow is an astronomical number of cubic feet per minute, and it gotta be moving at a 15-20kph easy. Though sometimes they do quote that figure in cubic metres per minute (264 gallons).
I have both imperial and a metric socket wrench kits. I've assembled BBQs that had both. You can tell which parts came from the US, and which didn't. IKEA is always metric. Lawnmowers are typically Imperial. My camera gear is both. (Tripod sockets are 1/4 or 1/8 inch coarse threads. Lighting stands use metric allen keys, unless they are US made.)
So to my American Cousins. Just switch already and get it over with! Make life easier for every one else in the world, 'kay!?! Eh?
I don't even bother with calculating fuel economy any more. The official measurement is litres/100km, but I still think in MPG, but buy fuel in litres. But I know that our Smart car has an 8 gallon tank.
Lord, lol! :D
Best of all.... When Environment Canada calls for a -5� day I crank the thermostat up to 69 and think about roasting a 3kg chicken with 1/2lb of potatoes, in an oven set at 375. When I bought the chicken the supermarket had a sale on in the deli. Buy 1/2 lb of sliced roast beef, and get 100gs of potato salad free.
I'll drive 10 km to visit my friend who lives in a 1200sq/ft house. It's nice, they have a view since they are 300m(etres) up the bluff. They can see Five Mile Creek, which is at least 25km away. Except if it's storming. We can storms here with winds of at least 100kph and that will drop an inch or two of rain. On the mainland, the Fraser river, which is over 2200 km long, can rise 10, 12, even 15 feet in the spring melt. The flow is an astronomical number of cubic feet per minute, and it gotta be moving at a 15-20kph easy. Though sometimes they do quote that figure in cubic metres per minute (264 gallons).
I have both imperial and a metric socket wrench kits. I've assembled BBQs that had both. You can tell which parts came from the US, and which didn't. IKEA is always metric. Lawnmowers are typically Imperial. My camera gear is both. (Tripod sockets are 1/4 or 1/8 inch coarse threads. Lighting stands use metric allen keys, unless they are US made.)
So to my American Cousins. Just switch already and get it over with! Make life easier for every one else in the world, 'kay!?! Eh?
I don't even bother with calculating fuel economy any more. The official measurement is litres/100km, but I still think in MPG, but buy fuel in litres. But I know that our Smart car has an 8 gallon tank.
Lord, lol! :D
Kavok
Apr 26, 04:16 PM
Okay let's break it down per handset. 97 android phones with different versions of android (per wikipedia).. 5 different iPhones since 2007... which has greater share per handset?
Just because Android is flooding the market doesn't make it a superior mobile OS. Just one that caters to the lowest common denominator.
People I've talked to with Android-based smartphones aren't happy with the interface and some have decided to go iPhone after showing them the differences.
Just because Android is flooding the market doesn't make it a superior mobile OS. Just one that caters to the lowest common denominator.
People I've talked to with Android-based smartphones aren't happy with the interface and some have decided to go iPhone after showing them the differences.
dethmaShine
Apr 25, 10:15 AM
CLAIMS:
Apple and iPhone track User Locations
Easily accessible file to any one who has access to one's iPhone/iPad
EXPLANATIONS:
iPhone tracks User Locations.
Apple does NOT track User Locations.
Accessibility threat is a void as one can do wonders if he has your property.
Steve Jobs is a dick because I hate Apple. Android is open and I love open. I can open it. I can wigets. I can overclock the **** out of it. Apple is Closed. Hypocrites and Evil.
And I'm 12. :rolleyes:
Apple and iPhone track User Locations
Easily accessible file to any one who has access to one's iPhone/iPad
EXPLANATIONS:
iPhone tracks User Locations.
Apple does NOT track User Locations.
Accessibility threat is a void as one can do wonders if he has your property.
Steve Jobs is a dick because I hate Apple. Android is open and I love open. I can open it. I can wigets. I can overclock the **** out of it. Apple is Closed. Hypocrites and Evil.
And I'm 12. :rolleyes:
cdallen
Mar 30, 06:13 AM
Why? It�s just a reference to the battleground / spectator status of the decolonized countries during the cold war. (The "second world" being the now-defunct Soviet Bloc.)
From the almighty Wikipedia:
"French demographer, anthropologist and historian Alfred Sauvy, in an article published in the French magazine L'Observateur, August 14, 1952, coined the term Third World, referring to countries that were unaligned with either the Communist Soviet bloc or the Capitalist NATO bloc during the Cold War. His usage was a reference to the Third Estate, the commoners of France who, before and during the French Revolution, opposed priests and nobles, who composed the First Estate and Second Estate, respectively. "
Anyone who needs to quote wikipedia shouldn't be allowed to contribute!
Now thats a FACT!
From the almighty Wikipedia:
"French demographer, anthropologist and historian Alfred Sauvy, in an article published in the French magazine L'Observateur, August 14, 1952, coined the term Third World, referring to countries that were unaligned with either the Communist Soviet bloc or the Capitalist NATO bloc during the Cold War. His usage was a reference to the Third Estate, the commoners of France who, before and during the French Revolution, opposed priests and nobles, who composed the First Estate and Second Estate, respectively. "
Anyone who needs to quote wikipedia shouldn't be allowed to contribute!
Now thats a FACT!
dernhelm
Aug 11, 11:17 AM
apple needs to introduce a computer which is between the mac mini and the mac pro tower.
I want a mini tower, with 2 pci slots. you know something in the price range of $899-999 usd.
where i can upgrade the graphics card or order it with a better graphics card.
Some of us do not want to be tied to the imac screen/body. I love to be able to upgrade my own computer's graphics card.
Cmon apple. give us a mid tier system we can upgrade ourselves. The Macmini just doesnt cut it. virtually the only thing in that we can chance is the CPU, Memory or hard drive.
The mini and macbook seem destined to use onboard video for the near (foreseeable) future. That's one of the differentiators Apple is using on those "consumer" brands.
When you think about it, it isn't unreasonable, if updating the iMac's video card weren't such a herculean effort, you could just point "pro-sumers" at the iMac, or 15" macbook.
The real problem is that they made video card upgrades on the iMac very difficult.
I want a mini tower, with 2 pci slots. you know something in the price range of $899-999 usd.
where i can upgrade the graphics card or order it with a better graphics card.
Some of us do not want to be tied to the imac screen/body. I love to be able to upgrade my own computer's graphics card.
Cmon apple. give us a mid tier system we can upgrade ourselves. The Macmini just doesnt cut it. virtually the only thing in that we can chance is the CPU, Memory or hard drive.
The mini and macbook seem destined to use onboard video for the near (foreseeable) future. That's one of the differentiators Apple is using on those "consumer" brands.
When you think about it, it isn't unreasonable, if updating the iMac's video card weren't such a herculean effort, you could just point "pro-sumers" at the iMac, or 15" macbook.
The real problem is that they made video card upgrades on the iMac very difficult.
Stella
Mar 26, 10:58 PM
How is a cloud based system going to work when bandwidth limits for cell phone data is low, and overage fees are high?
I really hope wwdc is going to focus on computers rather than its IOS toys.
I really hope wwdc is going to focus on computers rather than its IOS toys.
MacQuest
Nov 22, 03:24 PM
Wasn't it exactly the same story with the iPod?
Exactly. :rolleyes:
How are Rio, Creative, and all the other "iPod Killer" product manufacturers like Sony doing nowadays in the digital music player market? :p
Rio's out of business and Creative is now part of the "Made For iPod" accessory community? :eek: Walkman? what the H*LL is that?! :confused:
Take notes Palm. History repeats itself. :cool:
Exactly. :rolleyes:
How are Rio, Creative, and all the other "iPod Killer" product manufacturers like Sony doing nowadays in the digital music player market? :p
Rio's out of business and Creative is now part of the "Made For iPod" accessory community? :eek: Walkman? what the H*LL is that?! :confused:
Take notes Palm. History repeats itself. :cool:
Dont Hurt Me
Aug 7, 03:47 PM
The old Macfanclub hating the gamer , we have heard it before. There isnt any reason Macs cant game. You buy a thousand or two thousand machine it should be able to game. Mini cant.............Powermac is pure Overkill workstation. A gigantic hole for sure. Here's to the Mac gamers ! Its folks like you that have kept the fun in Mac :D Work Sucks:) edit in response to thataboy
nuckinfutz
May 7, 10:12 AM
It's naive to assume that Apple won't use MobileMe data in the future to serve you ads
Given the [lack of acceptable] performance of the current service, all of these things are just going to be painful to use. If they can devote some more bandwidth to them, I could see it being a hit.
It's illogical to think they will. Apple sees iAds as a way for developers to deliver free or $.99 apps on the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad without going broke. iAds are not something that Apple wants to push beyond their mobile offering and app store. They have no history looking to leverage advertising.
Well we must think that they're building the NC datacenter for a reason. Initially I thought it was an average sized datacenter but it is in fact humongous (5x larger than their California datacenter) so clearly they have BIG cloud plans.
Given the [lack of acceptable] performance of the current service, all of these things are just going to be painful to use. If they can devote some more bandwidth to them, I could see it being a hit.
It's illogical to think they will. Apple sees iAds as a way for developers to deliver free or $.99 apps on the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad without going broke. iAds are not something that Apple wants to push beyond their mobile offering and app store. They have no history looking to leverage advertising.
Well we must think that they're building the NC datacenter for a reason. Initially I thought it was an average sized datacenter but it is in fact humongous (5x larger than their California datacenter) so clearly they have BIG cloud plans.
Hattig
Jul 30, 09:43 AM
How successful are MVNOs? Last I heard ESPN and Disney mobile are rumored to be shutting down due to low subscriber numbers.
Disney -> Steve Jobs -> Apple ;)
Who'd get a mobile phone on an ESPN or Disney network anyway? Free sport clips or Mickey Mouse backgrounds?
Hey dude, with all due consideration, bad fake screenshots don't even rank along side a rumour of a rumour as far as a useful source of information.
David:cool:
I don't usually have the time to find out if something's fake or not, but the /point/ of my post remains.
Disney -> Steve Jobs -> Apple ;)
Who'd get a mobile phone on an ESPN or Disney network anyway? Free sport clips or Mickey Mouse backgrounds?
Hey dude, with all due consideration, bad fake screenshots don't even rank along side a rumour of a rumour as far as a useful source of information.
David:cool:
I don't usually have the time to find out if something's fake or not, but the /point/ of my post remains.
LagunaSol
Apr 18, 04:08 PM
What, precisely, did Samsung blatantly "rip off" from Apple?
Perhaps you didn't read the first sentence of the very comment you quoted, which clearly stated "industrial design" and "user interface," neither of which has anything to do with any of the hardware specifications you brought up.
Technically, they should sue every PC manufacturer on Earth for every ounce of silicon ever produced, because, after all, Apple did invent the personal computer.
Strawman fails.
Perhaps you didn't read the first sentence of the very comment you quoted, which clearly stated "industrial design" and "user interface," neither of which has anything to do with any of the hardware specifications you brought up.
Technically, they should sue every PC manufacturer on Earth for every ounce of silicon ever produced, because, after all, Apple did invent the personal computer.
Strawman fails.
Erasmus
Aug 4, 07:35 AM
I do not believe that Apple should wait to announce their new 64 bit systems. They should (and could) give promos of complete overhauls of their entire Mac lineup. (Final propaganda for iMac Ultra)
I think that Apple should concentrate on getting lots of switchers. Apple probably care about us old "maccies", because, of course, it is very rare for a mac user to change to using the Operating System That Must Not Be Named.
I therefore think Apple promoing iMacs, Macbooks, MBPs, MPs, MMs, etc. would be in their best interest, as potential switchers would know that Apple intends to bring out cool machines as soon as they can, if not immediately. Sure, it would impact on initial sales, as no-one would buy any of their computers between then and the shipping date, however, Apple would catch many fence-sitters who would otherwise bite the bullet and buy a much cheaper (and much more pathetic) PC after Steve's Keynote.
Wining Switchers should be Apple's goal now.
I think that Apple should concentrate on getting lots of switchers. Apple probably care about us old "maccies", because, of course, it is very rare for a mac user to change to using the Operating System That Must Not Be Named.
I therefore think Apple promoing iMacs, Macbooks, MBPs, MPs, MMs, etc. would be in their best interest, as potential switchers would know that Apple intends to bring out cool machines as soon as they can, if not immediately. Sure, it would impact on initial sales, as no-one would buy any of their computers between then and the shipping date, however, Apple would catch many fence-sitters who would otherwise bite the bullet and buy a much cheaper (and much more pathetic) PC after Steve's Keynote.
Wining Switchers should be Apple's goal now.
mattwolfmatt
Apr 25, 10:40 AM
The info circulating around is false.
Steve
PS shouldn't you be at your gym right now? It's Monday morning, after all.
Steve
PS shouldn't you be at your gym right now? It's Monday morning, after all.
Tailpike1153
Apr 21, 02:46 PM
I hope they call it the MacServe :D
:). I like the name. Alot better than iServe.
:). I like the name. Alot better than iServe.
PBF
Apr 23, 10:01 PM
I love retinal operating systems. It's so freakin' futuristic.
ECUpirate44
Mar 28, 11:13 AM
The second update makes more sense.
dr Dunkel
Apr 25, 09:45 AM
Why should God allmighty (Steve) not lie to his minions?
gugy
Aug 2, 01:15 PM
Why is everyone so convinced that there will be significant updates to the Cinema Displays? Remember how long the non-Alu plastic displays were out? It must have been five years, while the Alu displays have been out for less then two years.
I can't see Apple making a bigger screen then 30" for desktop use. And if they were to, it would be for a multimedia center type thing, which not only is unlikely, but would never be released at WWDC. As a 30" display owner, theres no way a screen larger then 30" would be a feasible desktop display. Besides, anything larger then 30" is just too niche of a market.
Regarding a built-in iSight, I think the Pro market is just the wrong market for that. Apple has to be aware of its market, and b/c of security reasons, cameras just aren't feasible at this point.
Hell, who knows, I'm probably 100% wrong :p.
Edit: Perhaps Apple will just bump the display to be HDCP compliant. HDMI is pretty much the same as DVI, for everyone who doesn't know ;).
Wow, I have a 30" monitor and I would not mind to have a 40" + monitor.:eek:
Seriously, I have dual monitors and I think a larger monitor would be welcome. Not maybe for dual monitor set up because it would be too large, but for a single large monitor, it would be great. Plus the use for entertainment display to watch movies and TV would be really cool.
The technology is here. I really expect Apple to come up something bigger for the Pro crowd and WWDC is the perfect event for that. Remember, people never thought the 30" would ever come up.
Regarding the design, I agree that Apple will keep the same enclosure. Is a very nice design and I don't think will change anytime soon.
As for Isight built in, I like the idea, but if you have dual monitors, seems weird to have dual Isight. I rather have the BTO option for an extra price.
I can't see Apple making a bigger screen then 30" for desktop use. And if they were to, it would be for a multimedia center type thing, which not only is unlikely, but would never be released at WWDC. As a 30" display owner, theres no way a screen larger then 30" would be a feasible desktop display. Besides, anything larger then 30" is just too niche of a market.
Regarding a built-in iSight, I think the Pro market is just the wrong market for that. Apple has to be aware of its market, and b/c of security reasons, cameras just aren't feasible at this point.
Hell, who knows, I'm probably 100% wrong :p.
Edit: Perhaps Apple will just bump the display to be HDCP compliant. HDMI is pretty much the same as DVI, for everyone who doesn't know ;).
Wow, I have a 30" monitor and I would not mind to have a 40" + monitor.:eek:
Seriously, I have dual monitors and I think a larger monitor would be welcome. Not maybe for dual monitor set up because it would be too large, but for a single large monitor, it would be great. Plus the use for entertainment display to watch movies and TV would be really cool.
The technology is here. I really expect Apple to come up something bigger for the Pro crowd and WWDC is the perfect event for that. Remember, people never thought the 30" would ever come up.
Regarding the design, I agree that Apple will keep the same enclosure. Is a very nice design and I don't think will change anytime soon.
As for Isight built in, I like the idea, but if you have dual monitors, seems weird to have dual Isight. I rather have the BTO option for an extra price.
AppleIntelRock
Sep 16, 03:14 PM
some days i feel like a dell owner :(
